M-346/T-346 for Royal Netherlands Air Force?

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evhest
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Re: M-346/T-346 for Royal Netherlands Air Force?

Post by evhest »

Answers will be questioned.....
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Re: M-346/T-346 for Royal Netherlands Air Force?

Post by Flyboy »

Given the huge cost per flying hour (fuel...) and the fact that the number of aircraft is way to low (not able to operate abroad as we do now) every LIFT saves money and operational airframes:
The application of an Embedded Training System lies in the cost savings that can be achieved through downloading of training tasks. Each student hour on a LIFT aircraft costs approximately one-third of that on an operational fighter type.
source
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Re: M-346/T-346 for Royal Netherlands Air Force?

Post by Coati »

evhest wrote:This is the probably source: https://magazines.defensie.nl/vliegende ... -op-italie
Thanks! Indeed one of the plans to actually fly the aircraft in the Netherlands, but not more than a study option for now, it seems.
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Re: M-346/T-346 for Royal Netherlands Air Force?

Post by Flyboy »

Coati wrote:
evhest wrote:This is the probably source: https://magazines.defensie.nl/vliegende ... -op-italie
Thanks! Indeed one of the plans to actually fly the aircraft in the Netherlands, but not more than a study option for now, it seems.
Very interesting indeed!!

The 37 F-35´s can provide 90-100 flying hours per pilot while 180 is required. The numbers then tell that about an equal number of airframes is required to provide the remainder (unless simulator hours count as real flying hour...). It would also imply mixed squadrons.
In speculation mode: with about 60-70 mixed airframes (of which a number remain in the States (and Italy?) ) one can fill more than 3 squadrons...

At least it is an interesting development.
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Re: M-346/T-346 for Royal Netherlands Air Force?

Post by TwoStep »

The KLu is looking at leasing M346s for things like CAS training, because F-35 flying hours are so expensive. Consideration is also being given to operating the type (M346) for QRA duties.
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Re: M-346/T-346 for Royal Netherlands Air Force?

Post by Stratofreighter »

Richard from Rotterdam wrote:Grappig. Nederlandse Yak-130s... ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6p1PYHM5OQ

Vanaf 2:20 een hoop wapentuig om over te struikelen... :wink:
:roll: :loud: :|
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Re: M-346/T-346 for Royal Netherlands Air Force?

Post by Goldenflyer »

Iemand enig idee of dit nog speelt? Zeker nu er F-35's zijn bij besteld... Kan er niets meer over vinden verder.
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Re: M-346/T-346 for Royal Netherlands Air Force?

Post by evhest »

Is niet meer aan de orde!
Answers will be questioned.....
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Re: M-346/T-346 for Royal Netherlands Air Force?

Post by Wildpicture »

TwoStep wrote:The KLu is looking at leasing M346s for things like CAS training, because F-35 flying hours are so expensive. Consideration is also being given to operating the type (M346) for QRA duties.
That would be the wisest decision for the Klu in years.....
So I guess not.
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Richard from Rotterdam
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Re: M-346/T-346 for Royal Netherlands Air Force?

Post by Richard from Rotterdam »

Het was denk ik meer een ballonnetje om meer funding te krijgen voor meer JSF’s.
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Re: M-346/T-346 for Royal Netherlands Air Force?

Post by Flyboy »

Het is ‘t Preathuys, dus het mag hier...

Het hele F-35 programma heeft aangetoond dat de KLu top best wel gevoel heeft voor de politieke realiteit. Nu bekend maken dat je meer ‘speeltjes’ wil aanschaffen is niet slim; het halve volk zal (terecht?) aangeven dat dat geld eerst naar de zorg moet en zo terwijl de andere helft zal zeggen dat de M-346 uit Italie komt en dat land al voldoende steun krijgt (ik heb het niet over reele argumenten, maar politieke one-liners)

Het is wel zo dat in aanbestedings-omgevingen gezien wordt er soms creatief met regel omgegaan word: neem nu de huidige V-11 vervanger. Ook is het een feit dat de F-35 en eenzitter is en om de PC-7 te gebruiken voor currency flights en andere emolumenten voor top-brass...

Mijn gok is dat (als de laatste F-35 door DMO is geaccepteerd is) later ineens de optie van leasen (minder ineens uitgeven) van de M-346 ineens opkomt. Met alle eerder gegeven argumenten waardoor het eigenlijk lijkt op geld besparen.

Tot die tijd komen eerst de nieuwe vip-jet, de KC-30M’s en nieuwe heli’s. Ook staat er een nieuwe aanbesteding voor de SAR-heli’s aan te komen en is (zo begreep ik) net de vervanging voor de Do-228-en bekend gemaakt.
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Re: M-346/T-346 for Royal Netherlands Air Force?

Post by Le Addeur noir »

Wildpicture wrote:
TwoStep wrote:The KLu is looking at leasing M346s for things like CAS training, because F-35 flying hours are so expensive. Consideration is also being given to operating the type (M346) for QRA duties.
That would be the wisest decision for the Klu in years.....
So I guess not.
You make it sound like the KLu in under control of the British MoD.

The MoD are past masters of the art of wasting money in large quantities!.
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Re: M-346/T-346 for Royal Netherlands Air Force?

Post by Wildpicture »

Le Addeur noir wrote:
Wildpicture wrote:
TwoStep wrote:The KLu is looking at leasing M346s for things like CAS training, because F-35 flying hours are so expensive. Consideration is also being given to operating the type (M346) for QRA duties.
That would be the wisest decision for the Klu in years.....
So I guess not.
You make it sound like the KLu in under control of the British MoD.
The MoD are past masters of the art of wasting money in large quantities!.
I am not sure if I explained myself correctly. Personally I think it would be good for the KLu to consider using a second type of aircraft and reserve the F-35 for specific types of theater/conflict. The F-35 is way too expensive and complex to be used for all tasks the Klu has to do. It is a bit like using a high tech Ferrari to do the weekly shopping. In some cases it might even be more like using a F-1 car to go to the "Gamma".

A better solution would be to operate a second aircraft type. That could be a M-346 (or alike) but it could even be a slightly upgraded version of the present F-16. The first option could be combined with a (European) training program. The last option might even provide opportunities for ex-F-16 pilots to remain in reserve service (like in the past of like the ANG) and increase the pool of available pilots. Plus the infrastructure already exists.

Which option is best, is a matter of calculating and weighing costs/benefits.

But somehow the dutch defence forces always want the newest, best and most expensive stuff. And then often double the price by wanting non standard equipment instead of the regular.
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Re: M-346/T-346 for Royal Netherlands Air Force?

Post by SquAdmin »

Het lijkt erop dat we deze discussie weer van vooraf aan gaat starten, maar het is komkommertijd dus...
Wildpicture wrote:It is a bit like using a high tech Ferrari to do the weekly shopping. In some cases it might even be more like using a F-1 car to go to the "Gamma".
Mooie vergelijkingen, die doorgetrokken kunnen worden: stel, je mag een nieuwe wagen kiezen om meerdere taken te vervullen. Meeste taken zijn relatief simpel, maar een ervan is dat je een wegrace moet winnen en als je die verliest ben je dood. Nu wil de politiek dat je slechts 1 type kiest om tal van redenen. Ik zou met dat perspectief alsnog voor de Formule 1 wagen gaan...
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Re: M-346/T-346 for Royal Netherlands Air Force?

Post by Flyboy »

Bedenk even dat alle aankopen met de salamie tactiek (oftewel in kleine plakjes) zijn gegaan.
dus eerst de huidige plakjes verwerken, dan de volgende...
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