01aug2016 Turkey: Incirlik AFB sealed off again.............

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Richard de Florennes
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Re: 01aug2016 Turkey: Incirlik AFB sealed off again.........

Post by Richard de Florennes »

Time to withdraw any nuclear weapons from Turkey as soon as possible, I would suggest. Not really a host nation now to trust any more. Unbelievable that NATO still relies on Turkish F-16s as part of their nuclear deterrence ...
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Re: 01aug2016 Turkey: Incirlik AFB sealed off again.........

Post by tally »

Richard de Florennes wrote:Time to withdraw any nuclear weapons from Turkey as soon as possible, I would suggest. Not really a host nation now to trust any more. Unbelievable that NATO still relies on Turkish F-16s as part of their nuclear deterrence ...
Agreed. Perhaps Greece or Italy would be a better location.
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Re: 01aug2016 Turkey: Incirlik AFB sealed off again.........

Post by K-9 »

Not that easy ....

A certain treaty has been signed ( back in the days ) ...
Besides that, not all NATO countries are committed to the nuclear deterrence.
I believe it's agreed to reduce the number of nukes, which might lead to so being moved. ( Can't find that signed document at this time ... )

Don't forget that the nukes are owned and maintained by the US.
Incirlik is a NATO and important US base. Turkish units trained to use this weapon, are not located at Incirlik.

Think the chance that "IS" will get their hands on these weapons is bigger than the chance turkey will use them for their "own" purpose and as such risk a major conflict with NATO, the US and perhaps even other countries. If there would be any chance on one of these situations at all.

So for now i vote at keeping them in their storage area !


Besides that, it's hard to get your hands on reliable news from Turkey !
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Re: 01aug2016 Turkey: Incirlik AFB sealed off again.........

Post by ehusmann »

I don't think Turkey ever using them is a real possibility. Nor that the US or NATO will ever use them, nor that IS will get their hands on them. In theory sure, but it will never happen.
However, it is a very valid point that the Turks can use these nukes as a bargaining chip, as they are using everything they can as bargaining chips. With cutting off the power to the base they have already proven that. So the real problem here is the fact that as long as these nukes are in Turkey, NATO has to deal with a more and more authoritarian regime to keep these weapons save. I don't know anything about the mentiond treaty, so no idea if these nukes can be moved, but if they can, they should.

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Re: 01aug2016 Turkey: Incirlik AFB sealed off again.........

Post by SquAdmin »

Erdogan is already hugging up to Putin, moving the nukes now would make NATO loose Turkey as an ally. Apart from that, aren't those nukes completely useless without launch codes or does that only count for ICBM's?
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Re: 01aug2016 Turkey: Incirlik AFB sealed off again.........

Post by ehusmann »

According to some they are not useless:
With a few hours and the right tools and training, you could open one of NATO’s nuclear-weapons storage vaults, remove a weapon, and bypass the PAL inside it. Within seconds, you could place an explosive device on top of a storage vault, destroy the weapon, and release a lethal radioactive cloud.
And I do not believe moving the nukes yes or no will make us loose Turkey as an ally. Erdogan does that all by his own account. With or without the nukes. Most of the officer corps removed after the coup was US oriented. They are gone now for a reason...

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Re: 01aug2016 Turkey: Incirlik AFB sealed off again.........

Post by K-9 »

And I do not believe moving the nukes yes or no will make us loose Turkey as an ally. Erdogan does that all by his own account. With or without the nukes. Most of the officer corps removed after the coup was US oriented. They are gone now for a reason...

Erwin[/quote]


Being?
Change of policy, less US oriented ? Which might explain why Incirlik has seen lockdown again. Turkey (used) to be a strong believer in sharing responsibilities between nato nations
Investing in relations with Russia is good, considering current problems ...
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Re: 01aug2016 Turkey: Incirlik AFB sealed off again.........

Post by ehusmann »

Being? Well let me see, the covert support of Turkey for IS (buying oil, allowing IS supporters to reach IS through Turkey), bombing the Kurdish in Syria (which are the most capable partners for the US in Syria), demanding that European countries crack down on the Hizmet organisation, demanding extradition of Gullen from the US (without proof, obviously), the crack down on all kinds of human rights in Turkey while at the same time still demanding faster admittion to the EU, likely reintroducing the death penalty, the black mailing of Europe through the refuge crisis...

Do you want me to continue? This is all happening th last couple of years, through Erdogan. Simply his policy that has brought Turkey in the problems it is in today. And it will only get worse.

Turning to Russia is not a good idea. It is also not what he wants. It is only needed right now because he is in the midst of blowing up all good relations with the west. Just take his questions about the US relations of today for example (in Dutch on nu.nl). But turning to Russia when you have no other friends left will surely end in missery for Turkey. Russia will abuse that to get what they want, not to help Turkey what Turkey needs.

Erwin
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Re: 01aug2016 Turkey: Incirlik AFB sealed off again.........

Post by dverhees »

An interesting bunch of different opinions. Good stuff. As far as I know, the attention that Incirlik has been getting since day 1 of the coup attempt has to do with the semi-renegade Turkish Tanker squadron stationed there, not at all the US units present or the nukes that might still be there. I think the US media has missed this nuance. Cheers, Don
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Re: 01aug2016 Turkey: Incirlik AFB sealed off again.........

Post by PNegri »

The US media will only report what it wants as it does was obummer wants them to say
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Re: 01aug2016 Turkey: Incirlik AFB sealed off again.........

Post by Optimus »

PNegri wrote:The US media will only report what it wants as it does was obummer wants them to say
Wow, we're really going off-topic with this subject now :lol: : it seems that, besides this impending Turkish dictatorship, a two-party political system (USA) is also not the answer then, with the upcoming US-elections in mind :wink: .

I somewhat fail to understand your sentiment, as in the US, there is some sort of free media, which is often not owned by the government, but more so based on political/religious views of either its owner(s) and parties buying broadcasting time (through obvious sponsoring) and commercials*. In Turkey, all media is nowadays state-owned (read Erdogan and his AKP party), as most, if not all, Turkish-based independent media has now been cracked down by the government. The daily protesters in Turkey (certainly since the coup), and those living elsewhere, base their limited views on the Turkish state-owned media and see any form of criticism as an attack on 'democracy'. Any form of (political) opposition was already made impossible in Turkey, but now the country is dead heading into a dictatorship.

If the Turkish media writes that the alleged renegades were operating/based at Incirlik, it would fuel the protesters to go there every day for free food and Erdogan-goodies to intimidate and silence any possible remaining non-Erdogan voters or those in favour of a separation between church and state. The side-problem though, is that the Turkish media is also pointing the blame towards western countries for aiding these 'renegades', which gives protesters some sort of legitimacy to attack 'westerners' if they would like to.

It certainly isn't getting any better, as most western politicians are currently away on holiday, so it will take some time before they (politicians, NATO, etc) will take a stand.

Time will tell (unfortunately).

Kees

* the sponsoring of popular media also applies for sponsoring of US elections (read: sponsors want something in return). Therefore, the world might need to reconsider what democracy actually means...
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Re: 01aug2016 Turkey: Incirlik AFB sealed off again.........

Post by Starman »

Therefore, the world might need to reconsider what democracy actually means...
Easy question first:

'Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.'

As for "free press" in the US, theoretically yes, but if you/your paper writes something that, for example, the White House don´t like, you might find your seat in the briefing room given over to someone prepared to tow the party line.
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Re: 01aug2016 Turkey: Incirlik AFB sealed off again.........

Post by ehusmann »

dverhees wrote:An interesting bunch of different opinions. Good stuff. As far as I know, the attention that Incirlik has been getting since day 1 of the coup attempt has to do with the semi-renegade Turkish Tanker squadron stationed there, not at all the US units present or the nukes that might still be there. I think the US media has missed this nuance. Cheers, Don
Unfortunately, that seems too simplistic a view. Since the coup, the Turkish media and with less strong words, the Turkish government, has accused the US of being behind the coup. That will partly be because of the fact Gulen is in the US and Turkey will try to put pressure on the US to extradite him.
On the other hand, it will no doubt also be used to explain why Erdogan all of sudden is making a 180 degree turn towards Russia again. Calling Putin all of a sudden a 'friend' again.

Does NATO really want to have nukes in a country that seems to like Russia more than the west?

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Re: 01aug2016 Turkey: Incirlik AFB sealed off again.........

Post by SquAdmin »

Pretty much every question in this topic is answered here:
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/48 ... r-strategy
Greetz,

Patrick
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